Stitch & Glue vs. Framed

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dave Z on March 21, 2009 at 6:11pm

Randy,

I figured that. 5200 and its relatives is some nasty goopy goop that indeed never gives up, no matter the conditions or temp. You are right about using the ring nails to attach the chine battens.

I got the bottom of my boat on this afternoon.. This post was perfect timing. Haven't decided what I'm going to do next. On my other boats, I laid down three layers of 7 oz glass/epoxy/graphite. I always put my chine battens on first, then glassed over the edge of them. grinding wheel gets them off.

On this boat I am very close to abandoning the glassed bottom. I'm thinking 1/4" or 3/8" sacrificial shoe. I cannot stand impact fractures on my inside floors. I'm thinking th ehard glass transfers impacts through the plywood floor and cracks the interior floor. An extra layer of ply just neatly screwed to it, but not glued will deaden those impacts. What are your thoughts?

I won't do a UMHW bottom, I saw a boat on the Delaware that had it and it was all warped and a mess.

Right now my boat has the bottom on it, and is just about faired up to the hull. Decision time!!!!!

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Permalink Reply by Jason Knight on March 22, 2009 at 6:02am

Dave,
My boat is using the tack and tape method on the bottom per Randy's instructions. You can sort of see the wrapped/rounded chine in my "Fiberglass" install blog. I will post a couple pics when I get it done... and get the gap filleted between the rounded chine edge and the batten.


-jk-

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Permalink Reply by Ross Duncan on March 26, 2009 at 4:19pm

I have been using a hybrid version of both methods, attaching the sides and bottom with screws and epoxy to a 1x1 white oak chine ( inside) . After sanding the bottom ply flush, a batton peiece of either oak or playwood is installed (Chine Batton) I have used both epoxy and 5200 for this and prefer the epoxy. But I have not had to remove one yet. I see this as a purely sacraficial piece. My last two boats did not have any ribs.. I dont glass my boats, but after a final expoxy sealer coat over the sides and bottom, I use a polyurethane coating for the final finish. Slick, abrasion resitant, flexible, and easily recoated for minor repairs. This appoarch gives me a sharp chine for tracking and the ease of stick and glue. PS I use the same material inside on the bottom. I see more rotting from water sitting in the boat, than the boat sitting in water.

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Permalink Reply by Sandy Pittendrigh on June 6, 2009 at 4:39pm

Chine cap vs no chine cap?
Tomato tomaaato?

The two boat styles do (as Randy said) act differently, with and without the chine cap.
Some guys like it this way and others like it that way. I'm a stitch and glue with
no chine cap kind of guy. I like the way the S&G boats turn so fast. But I do try to
keep the chine as sharp as possible. Widely rounded chines go to far, and are too squirrelly.
A sharp chine with no cap is the way I like it.

The only things I'd add: there is nothing to keep the S&G builder from gluing
on a chine cap, if you wanted one. The other thing about chine caps
is of course the infamous chine dip that happens when you get a framed boat
sideways to a fast current. That I do no like. It isn't dangerous and you can
learn to live with it, I suppose. Smile at it. Ignore it. But there is nothing good about it.

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Permalink Reply by Sandy Pittendrigh on August 13, 2009 at 10:44am

The chine batten, side slip, chine batten and chine dip issue is one of the most
interesting differences between framed and stitch and glue boats.

I don't think there is any smoking gun advantage one way or another. But there are
differences, and they eventually add up you like best. Yes, highly-rounded chines
on stitch and glue boats do have a lot of side slip. And they don't track the same way
as a framed boat.

But stitch and glue boats can be built with a relatively sharp chine that do handle
differently than stitch and glue boats built with a wider radius chine. And you do
learn to row with what you have. There are times when that chine batten seems to
give you a useful tracking advantage, and times too when I definitely wish it wasn't there.
Chine batten boats are slower to turn and that annoying sideways chine dip tendency isn't nearly as much
fun as a dipping chew.

After rowing both boat types long enough, you'll end up liking one boat type better than the
other. And the boat you end up liking best isn't necessarily what the next guy likes.
I know how to compensate for side slip. I don't like chine dip under any circumstances and really like fast nimble boats that turn on a dime. Viva la differance.

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Permalink Reply by Greg Hatten on March 21, 2009 at 7:39am

By the way Felipe... cool rods man.
GH

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Permalink Reply by Mike Dearing on March 21, 2009 at 7:53am

Felipe.

I think if you described what type of water your primarily going to be using your boat on this would probably tell us what type of boat would work best for you. If your rivers are mostly flat, wide and tend to shallow up at certain times of the year then I would probably go with an S&G boat with a wider bottom to float higher and is better suited to skim across bony areas. If you have more pool drop whitewater type rivers then go with a framed McKenzie style boat with more rocker and narrower bottom which tracks better, and IMO handles bigger water easier.

Like Randy said all aspects of boat design are give and take, you just need to focus on what will work best for the type of water you most intend to run.

Mike

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Permalink Reply by Felipe G. Ch. on March 21, 2009 at 11:05am

Wow! Thanks for all your replies, this is much more than I had expected.

I´ll primarily plan to use my boat to fly fish in mid to big size rivers of northern and central Patagonia, for those of you who've been here rivers like Limay, Chimehuin, Collón Curá, Aluminé, Rivadavia, Caleufu. These rivers flow down the Andes into the patagonian steppe on their way to the Atlantic Ocean. So you tend to have some whitewater on their first miles, and they then start to slow down as they flow into the steppe. I also think I would sometimes use it with a small outboard motor to fish some of the lakes we have in this region.

I have no experience as a whitewater rower, (although I feel very comfortable with water around, as I have sailed and windsurfed since I was a kid) so I would first choose to float down the more easy stretches, but I guess as I gain confidence at the rows I would also like to float down more challenging waters.

Rick, you are welcome here to fish bamboo! And if we can make it from a wooden drift boat, what else could you ask for? :)

Trout fishing in Argentina is still very good, if you have enough time you can explore lots of rivers and fish for trophy trout in public waters. If you also have the money, you can fish in some of the finest fishing lodges of the world.

Although we do have some issues regarding restricted access to water, poaching and pollution; we still have some very good quality fisheries. It is not unusual to fish a stretch of river without seeing another angler. Unfortunately, we have fewer public access to water everyday as landowners lock their gates to establish private fishing lodges and prevent poachers and "fish-killers" from entering their properties. However, you can still float some of the rivers, so I guess that´s one of the reasons you start to see more and more rafts and drift boats every year.

But going back to this post's subject, you have given me some truly valuable food for thought, please keep it coming!

Felipe

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Peak on March 21, 2009 at 4:05pm

somebody already mentioned that with S&G, mistakes are easier to ignore (sanding, grinding, filling). Somebody else thought that framed constriction was "easier". I've never done a framed boat, currently almost done with my first S&G whitewater dory, but working with epoxy/fiberglass is surprisingly forgiving, and as a beginner, the idea of tight joint work, specific angles, and the whole interior chine log thing scares me. I'd argue S&G is easier.

but I am so freeking tired of sanding.

and about chine dip: you can carve a turn in a WW kayak by leaning downstream as you maintain an upstream ferry angle. you can do the same in a drift boat by leaning downstream and keeping the upstream chine out of the water....kind of a cool feeling.

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Permalink Reply by AJ DeRosa on March 22, 2009 at 6:28am

Felipe,

I know the waters that you mention and have floated them all in rafts. In 1978 my partner, Patty Reilly and I were the first Americans to float fish the rivers you mentioned. A fellow from Pucon, Chile by the name of Alfredo Housser had floated these rivers in the 60's using the small wooden Chillian drift boat. I guided those waters from '78 till '82 and always wished I had a drift boat instead of a raft.

If I had my choice of boats for those rivers it would be a Rapid Robert style boat. It is a low profile boat that will tuck under the winds that blow up the Collon Cura and Alumine. It will run the class 3 on the Manzo below Lago Stephen and motor beautifully around Lago Tromen for big Fontanalis.

The boat on the left is my 16' Rapid Robert. It has lots of room and runs very well with a motor. The boat on the right is a stitch and glue "skiff".

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Permalink Reply by Felipe G. Ch. on March 23, 2009 at 11:56am

Thanks for your answer AJ! You have a beautiful boat.
I would have loved to float these rivers during those "golden years". It must have been very exciting! Have you got any pictures from those times?
I'll do some research on Rapid Robert style boats and see what comes up. Thanks!
Felipe

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Permalink Reply by pat caverly on August 2, 2009 at 11:33am

just joined great site!!!

i use frame tech. with plywood skin much- easier for me...plywoods out there today are perfect for marine use,also easier to keep boat square in design with a little skill you can even make some curves in design stitch n glue is just as strong in my opinion....i build flat bottom skiffs with tunnels/jack plates/platforms-- all out of wood for several years now,plywood is extremely strong when attach to frame with ss screws---its easier to cut panels first, youre actually building the frame on the plywood panel not vice-versa, panels dont lose lose their shape (squareness) building frame or skeleton first hard to keep true in design....... hope this helps pcaverly

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